In Excess of Expectations...aka Waffles' out first and none too happy...aka A bubble and its surface tension
An EDIT Important Enough I want it in front of everything that follows:
A guy should not play a great tournament and as L'artiste rightly noted "school the living crap" out of the final table in big stack play, then after winning feel he is being accused of collusion or cheating. Let me state again I honestly don't think lucko played anything but a ball-bustingly strong big stack. Blinders also deserves a lot of credit for managing to survive running as dead as he must have at the end. I was just trying to give you all a sense of what was going through my head initially - you all know the deep paranoia poker players are capable of in moments of pressure. I took lucko at his word in real time, and since then have been turning the concept over in my head again and again - hence a post focused on his power poker game rather than my typical "here's how I got third - yay me!" crap.
The comments have been excellent; they got me re-reading Sklansky this morning and I definitely learned something from all this. The beauty of poker is it is an apprenticeship, and no matter what you read, you still need to cut teeth too. This is the first time I've seen that big a chip differential short-handed, and it was instructive to say the least. Lucko, I 100% agree that I should have preflop pushed with AQo - I pussied out, and I will hopefully learn this lesson well. Again, I appreciate the comments - the feedback keeps my game growing, and I am a little proud that good players take the time to craft thoughtful responses to questions I pose to advance my understanding. Even in disagreement, the tone is that of civilized discourse. What more could you ask from a bunch of degenerates?
Yay us.
Now back to your regular deprogramming.
Well that was enjoyable. 38 runners first time out. Fucking incredible. Imagine when this thing hits the 50's. Kudos to big D for setting up an MTT that felt a lot more like what you see in the field. I think the structure was great and there was no denying the payouts made it worth the while, in addition to the usual bloggery good fellowship.
With perhaps the exception of the first hand exit by Waffles who correctly put cc's push on a draw holding mid pair to Waffles' bottom set, then was slightly displeased to see the turn create the nut flush. Absinthe surprised me a little with his parting comment for Waffles - it wasn't the end of the world or anything, but knowing our boy even a drop of kerosene is prolly one drop too many in the immediate aftermath. Waffles now states he won't post for a month, but as I write this he is about to win another 75 token, which likely means he'll be there to saddle up and do it all again in two weeks. All's well etc. etc...
And of course the bubble - which I knew going in could be the stage for some relative drama, because the payouts in this thing were nice. Maybe not college fund nice, but first paid as well as a 7th place finish in the FT 30k, so that should give you a frame of reference. The bubble play was interesting and I am going to just state my impression and would love for the players in question (and anyone else who wants) to chime in. When we got down to 6 handed and 5 paying, we had blinders and kitty as shortish stacks, me and kajagugu as midstacks (though by no means safe) and CracknAces with 22k to Lucko's 50 or 60k. Now I know we all gave lucko a ton of shit at the final table, and it's true he caught a lot of big hands early at the FT, but he also played the big stack strong. I was constantly under pressure to decide if I was comfortable gambling or going in way behind. When he did get called he had some nice breaks help out [I wouldn't count on Chad sending you a Christmas card this year], but his play exploited the bubble well to his advantage.
Yet I initially had some difficulty grokking his play, because I had the impression he was playing Blinders pretty soft. This didn't look great because I also had the impression they are friends. Let's be absolutely clear - I am NOT saying I think anyone colluded. And I am definitely NOT saying I think there was anything resembling cheating involved. It just looked like he did not put pressure on blinders, who sat to his immediate left with a miniscule stack, but would put it on everyone else. At worst, I might say that's soft playing a friend: which ain't kosher, but ain't the same thing as breaking the rules. However, the discussion in the chat illuminated for me a completely different line of reasoning that I would be interested in having people weigh in on.
When I finally couldn't take Lucko fucking up my attempts to put pressure on Blinders' BB (he would reraise in position every time I tried to 3X blinders' BB) and I called him on it in the chat, he provided a rationale that I had never encountered in final table play before. Initially he just stated he wanted to keep blinders in. As my eyebrows were going through the roof, he then explained that it was in his interest to have the bubble continue and to continue to use his big stack to resteal essentially from anyone trying to generate pressure (not his words, but the gist I think - again, please comment lucko, because I found your rationale fascinating, and I am trying to learn something from this). Not so long after we had that interchange he called along and checked down Kitty's short stack push. When her KK was rivered by CracknAces straight there were more than a few of us who thought it just as easily could have been Blinders bubbling. Looking back, I can see the logic in what lucko was doing from his point of view, and it may well have just been my frustration as a midstack on the bubble that was clouding my impression.
So again, all I am asking is whether this is standard big stack strategy that I was unaware of (I can't deny it was wonderfully effective - I made the mistake of the evening to this pressure when I folded AQo I had dumbly 3x'd when my M was well below 8) and what do you think of it?
Nonetheless, it's an honest and sincere congrats I offer Lucko who managed to pressure (and occasionally beat) his way up to 100k by the time we were three handed. I felt outplayed at the end, and that's not a bad thing, because it gives me things to think about and an opportunity to improve.
A sincere congrats to blinders too, that was a tough table to short stack through. I have to say, I think the deep stacks gave me the opportunity to make moves, and regroup and recover when some of those moves blew up in my face. I was up and down the leaderboard all night. And that said, the play was just about the same level (although we were fortunate to have some MTT heavyweights show), so if you are mulling it over, i would just say Go Fer It.
Laytah.
posted by Iakaris aka I.A.K. at 1:15 AM
30 Comments:
I thought about this issue after the game and especially the comment lucko made about not wanting the bubble to end and I recall seeing another big stack play like that before. I guess it makes sense. He was stealing from everyone, pretty much guaranteeing that whoever is left after the bubble will be extremely short on chips.
Blinders did everything he could to fold into the money and actually did not play a single hand at the final table until he had no choice (30 hands). I guess that's also a strategy.
I've read your blog a few times before and usually need reference material in order to decipher it. But I've added it to my lines as it's usually very entertaining.
Great playing with ya.
You played well, but were very easily pushed off your raises. With lucko holding most of the chips and the blinds getting bigger, it was not surprising though cause any 3X raise was often met with an all-in. It was a really tough game and you played great to get into the money. Your patience was impressive.
I don't have a problem with lucko's reasoning if there was no colluding. I had never really thought about the idea of keeping the bubble going, but that is because rarely is someone that big of a chip leader. It was wild to watch. What is wild is I was chipleader at the last break and then out of no where lucko just went off. Nice job iak.
Beck over at Steal The Blinds mentioned in his SnG strategy post that (and I'm paraphrasing here) "pop the bubble when you want to pop it when you're the big stack". The bubble can be the most profitable part of the tournament for the big stack. Why? Because he has the chips to constantly pressure the *middle stacks* and steal their blinds. Beck mentioned that it wasn't a big deal if the big stack gave some chips to the small stack from time to time. That would just make the bubble last longer.
The big stack doesn't care which player is the small stack. If the small stack goes from one player to another that simply changes the big stack's targets.
Obviously, this strategy is pretty sound (because the big stack can control the table and gain a TON of chips if it's done right), but the middle stacks can fight back if they're given the proper opportunity.
Personally, I don't like Blinders strategy of simply folding. Unless his stack was SO short that there was no chance he'd catch up to anyone. Then, I'd probably try to fold into the money.
Well done, sir, and it was a pleasure staying on the felt for so long with you. I didn't see anything too out of the ordinariy from him myself; it was why I called with my 88 as I wanted to take stands against him. With such a big stack and since the prize structure was relatively gigantor, I figured it would be a brutal session if someone couldn't knock him down a notch or two. I can't say too much about the end game play when the bubble neared. I defer to you MTT'ers on most of this stuff. Look forward to meeting your aquaintance again, though.
I was watching for a bit and the way he was schooling the living crap out of ya’ll on that bubble, it would have been correct for him to fold Aces if it meant protecting the bubble for a little while longer. He nearly increased his stack by 50% on that bubble and he was already a big time chip leader.
Folding AQo was way wrong here. Hell, anyone should have made a stand with any lesser hand (Two cards higher than ten, K-9o type hands even); you have to understand that his range is HUGE, he’s not raising and re-raising with Primo hands all the time. I figure this specific group of bloggers were influenced by the size of the payouts (High rollers like Wes, Fuel55, Smokee and Absinthe would not have put up with this crap for long)
I think that I read in Slansky's book that it is more profitable to keep the short stack in the game on the bubble. He even suggested folding a premium hand to continue the on slot again after the hand is over. Lucko play an outstanding big stack game and I give him credit. That being said, his face had to hurt from the deck hitting it so hard. But he earned the right to be in that position. We’ll played by everyone.
All this being said, I would have called and hoped to break the money bubble. At that point Blinders stack was of no consequence as compared to Lucko’s.
It is more of SNG strategy like pokerwolf said. Its rare in an MTT that you have such a situation.
I am not friends with Blinders (sorry blinders). I don't even know if Blinders is male or female. If I soft played Blinders at all it was because of the tiny stack. The amount my steals and resteals were working, I didn't want anyone to bust. I pretty much wouldn't have called an all in from anyone on that bubble.
I don't know which hand you had AQ, but if you were going to fold to a reraise, you probably should have pushed preflop instead of leaving the door open for me to come over the top.
Good game and congrats on 3rd!
Congrats on the final table and cash. Nice job against a pretty tough field.
Sorry I wasn't able to play last night.
Nice job Iak! No collosion. I don't know lucko, though I read his blog and respect his play. Lucko played the bubble perfect, and I think I did ok as well. I went about as card dead as possible at the final table, and was facing a raise preflop from crackin, you or lucko everyhand. I figured I would bubble out if I did not take a stand, but could not get anything to take an all-in stand with. I would have made a move on the bubble if possible, because that would have been a sick way to go out. The people who were really hurt by luckos play, was everyone at the table who refused to stand up to him (including me). It was less than an orbit to heads up, after I went 5th, after he had destroyed everyone elses chances and stacks.
Congrats on your third place finish, Iak. I understand your frustration, though I believe you stated it with class.
If this helps, I was about to bring up the fact that Sklansky advocates folding almost all hands (including premium hands, p.e. you are correct) before the poker enthusiast brought it up. In fact, he's even said it was correct to fold AA? Or maybe he was talking about bubble play or when the top three places play and you've got a big stack or something. It's in my head somewhere but I can't state it. Anyway, I would rather just crush the guy, but he played the bubble much better.
I think the only reason any question came up was because 5 hands later on the same said bubble lucko decided to CALL Kat which was against what he he did with blinders. Anyway.. I take Lucko at his word and beleive that he did not do anything wrong. Just was odd at the time to do exactly opposite moves on two people.
SirFWALGMan- I am actually kind of mad at myself for that hand with Kat. I felt like I got bullied into it after the fold I made earlier. I wasn't colluding in any way at any time and that was what people got upset at. They wanted me to take part in the implicit collusion that happens during a lot of tournaments. I was playing to do the best for myself, which meant extending the bubble. I gave into pressure on that hand and that I do regret.
I, for one, am really impressed with Lucko's logic and explanation. This is the type of thinking and strategy that most interests me. Here is a move (soft playing the shortstack) that most of us have "learned" is a wrong play, but Lucko knew better and was able to use it to his advantage. The fact that everyone else thought he was colluding was a testament to the ingeniousness of the strategy and could have further helped him by tilting players. That said, if I were in Iak's position, without knowing what I now know, I would've been mighty pissed at the seeming collussion. I now know better.
I don't think it was so much that anyone thought Lucko was colluding, per se, until he made the comment that he "didn't want Blinders to go out." That appeared to be a direct statement of collusion, and is what made everyone upset.
I too mistook it for him trying to protect a friend from bubbling and was pissed off, but he has since explained it thoroughly. (And graciously, I may add.)
Admittedly, we "all" play to eliminate the short stack players on the bubble more often than not, so it is refreshing to see another persepctive.
That aside - huge congrats, Iak. I had you on second place in this, but certainly nothing wrong with third! Well done.
well played last night Iak. you made some tuf calls and got deep.
i know Blinders and Lucko personally and know for a fact Lucko has never met Blinders.
i've never seen a strategy where a player tries to extend the bubble before. but, it was genius. Lucko was gobbling up chips like crazy.
IMO you have go to war with your AQ on that hand tho. you gotta figure Lucko's pushing with non-premium hands. his over the top reraise gets you heads up. it's a must call in my mind.
My edit addresses all of what goes above except for L'artiste's second point. I'll go into because I think it's an important issue for me.
You are dead right I fucked up AQ, but not for the reason you postulated. Bankroll is not the issue - all bullshit aside, I could roll myself to play 3/6 easily - I don't do it because I know I have a light-year's worth of work to go before I'll be able to compete there.
For some, a far greater threat to to winning poker than the payout is paradoxically the fear of losing. That is what did me in on that hand. It's my hope in understanding that I will be able to play through that fear next time.
This has been one of the best post/comment combos in a long time on any blog. I think more than IAK learned something here.
lucko is a beast on the bubble...
he knows what he is doing... i hate playing a sng with him and we both make it 4 handed.
btw i suck at poker.
Lots of great comments here, I wish now I had stayed up to watch it.
I'd like to congratulate you IAK on a well played tourney, you didn't freak out and push (such as I did) when you got low stacked. You played great. I for one can't wait till the next big game and will start hitting some tokens tonight.
Very nice work, Ick. I'll have to agree with you here as I watched the FT and saw one comment made to Lucko, "How do you not call that?" when he was shoving with any two high cards and hitting everything. i.e. that one hand where he had QJ or KJ and hit a JJx flop. Maybe he was colluding with Full Tilt (haha), but I can't say. But I thought his play was iffy even though smokkee provided some back-up that it was not. I would be questioning it too if I were you. I've only read one poker book, so I'm not too poker-savvy here, but why the hell does someone want to keep people in? The object in tourneys is to win, so why intentionally keep people in when you're 4x the 2nd chip stack? Although Jordan says that this was ingenious, I can't imagine where this strategy comes from, especially when you're hitting every flop hard. I just don't get it. No problem in speculation. See you in two weeks.
SLB,
the reason this is a smart play is cuz Lucko gets to continue pounding the middle stacks stealing all the preflop action while the shorties sit back and hope one of the other middle stacks takes a stand and busts.
everyone knew what was at stake here and no one wanted to bust 6th. in the meantime, Lucko accumulates all the chips hitting the table before the bubble bursts. you saw how fast the other two flew out and it got heads up after it burst.
freakin awesome play.
BTW, thanks to L'artiste for considering me a "high-roller".
i have made several final tables with a lot of $$$ on the line. but, i still play token tourneys cuz i'm such a cheap ass.
Stev-o,
Appreciate the backup, but I am definitely NOT saying I think collusion was involved. I am saying that lucko played a very sophisticated strategy against me that I was new enough to not recognize until the critical hand (my AQ fold where I would likely have doubled) had passed. From lucko's (not the table's but specifically lucko's) point of view, the bubble is a HUGE advantage - it's a threat to everyone but him that he exploited continually by risking a small portion of his stack to put his opponent's life on the line.
It's beautiful, and you can rest assured should this odd development ever befall me in an MTT I will mimic it as best I can.
Ick,
Not saying you were accusing anyone of anything...just the questionable play.
Smoke,
I getcha...yeah, I hear that you should go after the medium stacks as they just want to see the shorties bust. Thanks for the clarification. Guess that's why I'm not at that level yet. Someday.
The hand lucko was accused of soft playing me, he folded his SB after a cutoff limper. I was short in the BB, but not all-in yet. He did not fail to call my all-in, he folded before I pushed in.
With Kat, she went all-in, and was already called, and lucko overcalled, (from the BB I think). In that case the bubble was potentially already going to be burst.
No colusion here, fo sho, boys. Lucko has never met Blinders.
And, If I could stategically pick Kat or Blinders to be at the Final Table with me, with a short stack, I'd pick Blinders - WAY more predicatble (less of a threat). I bow down to Lucko for his ingenuity on the bubble.
Well done at the big game. And I love the new blog roll, even if I do seem to have fallen off it :(
Should I ever merit a return, you can give me one of those maple leaf thingies too -- or do you need a notarized copy of my passport to verify that?
I do not think anyone was acusing Lucko of collussion just mentioning how the hands played out strangely and differently and hell thats human nature..
I do like the fact that he wanted to keep the bubble alive as he was mashing the final table.. good job man.
In all the time ive been playing poker and all levels and books I have read (read slanky but dont remember reading this part) this has to be the most intriguing ideas ive every heard. And as I'm still trying to comprehend this idea its pretty freaking cool. Great post man and the ability of lucko to even use this idea in a real life situation is awesome in itself. Once again great freaking post
I missed the tourney 'cause I was playing live, but this is the most interesting comment string I think I've ever read. Fascinating all around.
And congrats on a strong showing, Iak. You've come a long way in a short time. Nicely done.
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