Idylls of my kings...aka Tennyson never open-limped monsters...aka The unexamined life hand is [probably] not worth [re]living
Yes Kids, It's Time For Yet Another EDIT:
First up: I need 49 more bloglines subscribers in order to drive Jordan nuts. C'mon people, doesn't that sound like a war effort worth making? Thought so. Fuel will run the numbers for us.
Next up: Horn tooting 101 [quelle surprise, no?] I have serious doubts hdouble reads this thing - but just in case; thanks, brotha. I clicked over to FT's guest blogger callout from your post on it. I've recently read Fuel's and Jordan's posts and they're just what you'd expect from them - rational and interesting strategy and tactics. Actually I just noticed that Wes the Big Pirate beat us all to the punch with a great piece on resisting the temptation to trouble deaf Heaven with our bootless cries when AA/KK go south. Reasonable foreshadowing for this post, no doubt.
I think mine is also in line with what you'd expect me to produce. I wrote it a little on the fast side, and yeah, I could be accused of pandering, but I meant every word. Anyone who knows me or reads this thing knows - I fuckin' love Full Tilt Poker. I'm happy to advertise their phenomenal site whenever I get a chance, and yup; it's nice to get paid for it this time. Thus, if you've found yourself wondering lately, "How can I have access to even more of Iakaris' inner, most deeply personal thoughts?" all I can say is: Your Chariot Awaits.
Well hope you enjoyed that spiritually uplifting exercise. Now back to Regicide: An Essay with Many Words.
____________________
Here’s a hand I’d like to share with you and get feedback on. It’s one that demonstrates the value of Conventional Wisdom but also one that draws reference to one of the ideas in Absinthe’s last strategy post – The Roshambo Defence (Which reminds me: how the fuck did you Americans come up with that name? Internationally, ever since we stepped out of caves and sequentially invented paper and scissors the rite has been known only by its weapons of choice. Gotta do everything yer own way, eh?) . Proving great minds (with too much time available) think alike, cmitch recently put up a nice piece on thinking about what the other guy thinks you’re up to that also struck a chord.
“Never limp monsters”, we are told by pro and schmoe alike. “That guy deserved to have his Aces cracked the way he slow-played ‘em.” I know something close to that quote has crossed my lips and fingertips a few times.
But if we all feel that way and act accordingly, you have to admit, it opens a hole in the front five an intrepid back might exploit. If we play for a while at a table and come to feel our opponent possesses a sound understanding of strategy and tactics, we may give him credit for an unwillingness to limp monsters. If others at our table have in fact formed that opinion of us, they may begin to turn off the suspicion of the UTG limp and just put the player on a mid-strength that will fold to same pressure one was planning on applying to the blinds anyway. On the other hand, you are playing with fire, because you are praying even for a min-raise to give you a chance to spring the trap.
Sometimes you get singed and other times it’s all seven layers of skin, and deep into bone.
Full Tilt. $109 6max 25k Guarantee – lately more like 30k. Becoming quite fond of this MTT for its size (280) to payout ratio. Nonetheless, despite four nice runs (outlasting half the field or better in all) I have yet to make dollar uno and my roll is screaming for mercy. I honestly should’ve cashed in 3 but got delusions of grandeur in the late game and overplayed my hands all the way to the rail. My new plan is one or two of these a week because the competition is knowledgeable enough to fold hands and small enough that a red hot night could make someone familiar with MTT success a lot of money for about four hours work.
UTG - Our Hero (clad in azure cashmere pajamas and matching size large men’s nightsocks) is dealt KK. Blinds 500/1000, my stack is just shy of 11K which is good for par. I have been at the table for a while and believe I know my 5 companions fairly well. UTG+1 is a shorty 5k and had been playing pretty aggro before getting stung. Early on he pounced on weakness. He’s been quite for a while and with the blinds coming by again I had the impression he might be ready to try and push me off, as he had done twice earlier. CO is a big stack raising and calling a lot preflop but a very good player postflop. The Button is another large stack 20k+ and numbers look like he likes to make moves. The BB is also a guy with a midsize stack and VP$IP of 44/22.
Let me end the suspense and note I don’t fare well this hand.
I limp KK UTG, specifically because I am 80-90% confident it will be raised pre-flop. I am trying to squeeze extra value out of the hand because I’ve played a little too tight and my raises are being respected to the point I can’t get any action to save my life. Shades of junior high, no doubt.
I get 4 of five people limping to the flop.
Flop comes about as bad as you’d want: A Q T with two diamonds (you guessed it - my kings are black).
The SB had folded and BB checks to me. Pot is 4500. Your move?
I fire 4k into it. I doubt AQ, AJ are out there. AT is possible, pocket pairs I would’ve thought should’ve reraised preflop. Any weak ace is poison. But I still have a shot here. I limped UTG with a monster…perhaps I can sell a different kind of monster.
I fold out two, but big stack smooth calls. Your guess as to what he’s holding? Weak A is possible but he should be able to fold it – he’s not a maniac.
Turn brings me more ugliness with another T. Your move?
I try a short (but not too short) wait and fire out 3k in the hope it will look like a value bet.
With zero hesitation, he puts me all-in. Your move?
I have bet off 8k of 11k holding a great starting hand and trying to make a move on this guy. It’s clear to me it didn’t work. Instead, as Wes noted recently, it seems I turned my good hand into a bluff.
I’m done. I fold. He doesn’t show.
Destroyed a very deep run – and I find this hand interesting (I allow you may not and if so, Apologies: I will resume my Limited Poker Thought policy in due course) because it’s layered with transgressions against Received Instruction that were deliberately made in the attempt to represent a winning hand.
Mistake 1: I limp KK
Mistake 2: I bet at an A high flop with three in the pot
Mistake 3: I bet the turn when it likely improved my opponents holding
Mistake 4: Folding when you have bet off 75% of your stack because you finally know you’re beat?
Was this hand a mess from the get go, or is there some method to this nebulous tactic. I still don’t hate the limp in context, and am ambivalent about my flop bet. The turn bet likely falls under the heading of Wishful Thinking.
Okay. Still alive in the 2pm deep stacks: 16th with 100+ left after the second break. Just trying to relearn how to cash in a deep field MTT – a feat outsmarting myself has made a challenge lately.
Laytah.
EDIT:
Be careful what you wish for if you're posting to a MWGB while actually in a tournament. Took my foot off accelerator just long enough for bubble to burst. Switched to new table but had tracker running on it so knew what everyone looked like. Huge stack who was pretty loose had 3Xd from UTG+1. I am 39/45 but ITM and find TT in MP. To me this is a no-brainer: I push accepting 4 hands will make this an early and minimally profitable exit, a bunch will have me racing and a few might make me smile. I double here and I am a midstack and a definite factor.
QQ.
Oh well, I finish 45/250+, just barely ITM and go out on a play I don't mind one bit. That's pokah, baby.
First up: I need 49 more bloglines subscribers in order to drive Jordan nuts. C'mon people, doesn't that sound like a war effort worth making? Thought so. Fuel will run the numbers for us.
Next up: Horn tooting 101 [quelle surprise, no?] I have serious doubts hdouble reads this thing - but just in case; thanks, brotha. I clicked over to FT's guest blogger callout from your post on it. I've recently read Fuel's and Jordan's posts and they're just what you'd expect from them - rational and interesting strategy and tactics. Actually I just noticed that Wes the Big Pirate beat us all to the punch with a great piece on resisting the temptation to trouble deaf Heaven with our bootless cries when AA/KK go south. Reasonable foreshadowing for this post, no doubt.
I think mine is also in line with what you'd expect me to produce. I wrote it a little on the fast side, and yeah, I could be accused of pandering, but I meant every word. Anyone who knows me or reads this thing knows - I fuckin' love Full Tilt Poker. I'm happy to advertise their phenomenal site whenever I get a chance, and yup; it's nice to get paid for it this time. Thus, if you've found yourself wondering lately, "How can I have access to even more of Iakaris' inner, most deeply personal thoughts?" all I can say is: Your Chariot Awaits.
Well hope you enjoyed that spiritually uplifting exercise. Now back to Regicide: An Essay with Many Words.
____________________
Here’s a hand I’d like to share with you and get feedback on. It’s one that demonstrates the value of Conventional Wisdom but also one that draws reference to one of the ideas in Absinthe’s last strategy post – The Roshambo Defence (Which reminds me: how the fuck did you Americans come up with that name? Internationally, ever since we stepped out of caves and sequentially invented paper and scissors the rite has been known only by its weapons of choice. Gotta do everything yer own way, eh?) . Proving great minds (with too much time available) think alike, cmitch recently put up a nice piece on thinking about what the other guy thinks you’re up to that also struck a chord.
“Never limp monsters”, we are told by pro and schmoe alike. “That guy deserved to have his Aces cracked the way he slow-played ‘em.” I know something close to that quote has crossed my lips and fingertips a few times.
But if we all feel that way and act accordingly, you have to admit, it opens a hole in the front five an intrepid back might exploit. If we play for a while at a table and come to feel our opponent possesses a sound understanding of strategy and tactics, we may give him credit for an unwillingness to limp monsters. If others at our table have in fact formed that opinion of us, they may begin to turn off the suspicion of the UTG limp and just put the player on a mid-strength that will fold to same pressure one was planning on applying to the blinds anyway. On the other hand, you are playing with fire, because you are praying even for a min-raise to give you a chance to spring the trap.
Sometimes you get singed and other times it’s all seven layers of skin, and deep into bone.
Full Tilt. $109 6max 25k Guarantee – lately more like 30k. Becoming quite fond of this MTT for its size (280) to payout ratio. Nonetheless, despite four nice runs (outlasting half the field or better in all) I have yet to make dollar uno and my roll is screaming for mercy. I honestly should’ve cashed in 3 but got delusions of grandeur in the late game and overplayed my hands all the way to the rail. My new plan is one or two of these a week because the competition is knowledgeable enough to fold hands and small enough that a red hot night could make someone familiar with MTT success a lot of money for about four hours work.
UTG - Our Hero (clad in azure cashmere pajamas and matching size large men’s nightsocks) is dealt KK. Blinds 500/1000, my stack is just shy of 11K which is good for par. I have been at the table for a while and believe I know my 5 companions fairly well. UTG+1 is a shorty 5k and had been playing pretty aggro before getting stung. Early on he pounced on weakness. He’s been quite for a while and with the blinds coming by again I had the impression he might be ready to try and push me off, as he had done twice earlier. CO is a big stack raising and calling a lot preflop but a very good player postflop. The Button is another large stack 20k+ and numbers look like he likes to make moves. The BB is also a guy with a midsize stack and VP$IP of 44/22.
Let me end the suspense and note I don’t fare well this hand.
I limp KK UTG, specifically because I am 80-90% confident it will be raised pre-flop. I am trying to squeeze extra value out of the hand because I’ve played a little too tight and my raises are being respected to the point I can’t get any action to save my life. Shades of junior high, no doubt.
I get 4 of five people limping to the flop.
Flop comes about as bad as you’d want: A Q T with two diamonds (you guessed it - my kings are black).
The SB had folded and BB checks to me. Pot is 4500. Your move?
I fire 4k into it. I doubt AQ, AJ are out there. AT is possible, pocket pairs I would’ve thought should’ve reraised preflop. Any weak ace is poison. But I still have a shot here. I limped UTG with a monster…perhaps I can sell a different kind of monster.
I fold out two, but big stack smooth calls. Your guess as to what he’s holding? Weak A is possible but he should be able to fold it – he’s not a maniac.
Turn brings me more ugliness with another T. Your move?
I try a short (but not too short) wait and fire out 3k in the hope it will look like a value bet.
With zero hesitation, he puts me all-in. Your move?
I have bet off 8k of 11k holding a great starting hand and trying to make a move on this guy. It’s clear to me it didn’t work. Instead, as Wes noted recently, it seems I turned my good hand into a bluff.
I’m done. I fold. He doesn’t show.
Destroyed a very deep run – and I find this hand interesting (I allow you may not and if so, Apologies: I will resume my Limited Poker Thought policy in due course) because it’s layered with transgressions against Received Instruction that were deliberately made in the attempt to represent a winning hand.
Mistake 1: I limp KK
Mistake 2: I bet at an A high flop with three in the pot
Mistake 3: I bet the turn when it likely improved my opponents holding
Mistake 4: Folding when you have bet off 75% of your stack because you finally know you’re beat?
Was this hand a mess from the get go, or is there some method to this nebulous tactic. I still don’t hate the limp in context, and am ambivalent about my flop bet. The turn bet likely falls under the heading of Wishful Thinking.
Okay. Still alive in the 2pm deep stacks: 16th with 100+ left after the second break. Just trying to relearn how to cash in a deep field MTT – a feat outsmarting myself has made a challenge lately.
Laytah.
EDIT:
Be careful what you wish for if you're posting to a MWGB while actually in a tournament. Took my foot off accelerator just long enough for bubble to burst. Switched to new table but had tracker running on it so knew what everyone looked like. Huge stack who was pretty loose had 3Xd from UTG+1. I am 39/45 but ITM and find TT in MP. To me this is a no-brainer: I push accepting 4 hands will make this an early and minimally profitable exit, a bunch will have me racing and a few might make me smile. I double here and I am a midstack and a definite factor.
QQ.
Oh well, I finish 45/250+, just barely ITM and go out on a play I don't mind one bit. That's pokah, baby.
posted by Iakaris aka I.A.K. at 4:22 PM
19 Comments:
Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.
Here is the first rule of slow-playing, AKA Taking your fate into your own hands AKA Being a retard to get more chips which is not so bad. If the flop (Or free card you give) is bad you have to fold.
Example A: You limp KK like a tool and cant fold when an Ace is there. I am all for tough poker but he probably did have Ace weak and once you let him have the hand you need to fold.
Example B: I LOVE to check sets on a 2-flush board.. HOWEVER is my doofus opponent gets all excited with the scare card when it hits I HAVE to give it up because I gave the guy his free card and lost.
It is not a bad strategy to play this way UNLESS YOU CAN NOT FOLD. If you have no ability to fold then you can not play this way.
I semi-hate slow playing KK and below because that Ace is going to show up enough to make you piss your pants and not know what to do, at least by raising your giving the A2-tards bad odds to see a flop.
Were you just at my table in the Full Tilt DS tourney for one hand?
Iak, how about a min raise there. If you are getting too much respect, a min raise from early position will likely thin the herd (since it admittedly might look like a strong hand OR the players limping with JT might wise up and fold) AND it will probably keep the BB in and/or get that short stack to push. Yep, min bet is the way to go, as long as you don't mind waking up cute lil sleepy jesus.
I'm with Waffles. If you're going to limp with Kings and you get 4 callers and an Ace drops, you have to be done with the hand. You retold your actions, and you seemed so intent on trying to bluff four other players, at least one of which has to have TP. You can't put anymore money in once the flop hits, bottom line, especially with the blinds where they are.
That being said, once you got down to 3k, you have to play out the hand. You still have a couple kings and 4 jacks as outs probably. But with the blinds at 500/1000, you can't fold. No way.
I don't mind the slow play so much, especially with the blinds that high.
I like the limp preflop based on your reads. AA limp is automatic with those reads. KK limp is ok. When you limp with KK, and get four callers, and an Ace flops it cant get much worse. Time to manage the pot size. Check behind on the flop, and maybee try to steal on the turn if it checks through again. The flop you described is about as scary as possible for your hand. You were probably against 2-pair or a straight, so no hope in getting a weak A to fold.
You disguise your aces and kings not by slow playing them.
You disguise your aces by playing other hands in a similar fashion.
In general you can't limp with monsters like KK more often than you play them hard, or I'm confident you'll be -EV for it after not too long. That said, there is surely a time and a place for any bluff including a slow-played Aces or Kings once in a while. A long while. If you've been at a table and playing your monsters hard for several rounds already.
Personally, I would have slowed down big time on this flop because you actually have at least one draw to the nuts. Often I find myself more willing to bluff when I'm holding a hand like 55 here, because I have virtually nothing to gain from trying to see a free card or two. When any Jack or King is probably good for me, I tend to try to check and see a card or two, and postpone the "pressure point" as our favorite blogger/author would say for at least one more card.
I like the post title.
Not slow playing is optimal against good players. Players likely to call too much with top pair can be exploited by the slow play.
So, the decision should be based on what type of mistakes your opponents are likely to make.
I actually like the limp there, I too am tired of min raising from the gun with a big pair just for everyone to fold , 4 callers is bad, and that was the risk you took.
I think one of the most helpful habits offered at this type of hand was offered by hoy, who hates to bet at a pot if 2 over cards hit the flop. same thing offered by harrington, and Ace and a ten on the flop are bad news, since too many people play double face cards. It was a good risk, but with an ugly flop and multi callers, you have to let them cowboys roam before they go brokeback on you.
Very interesting and helpful stuff, gents. Anyone else interested in sharing their two cents is heartily enouraged to do so. I think every one of these plans of attack would've resulted in me surviving this hand in better shape than I did.
As most of you know I tend to put up my MTT exit hands or severe cripplings for discussion. The reason I do this is that in MTT poker it truly just takes one misplayed hand or positional error to undo an entire run. Thus, I want to extract maximal value from every mistake I have already made. Blogging's great strength is that it can overcome an individual's inability to see their error by providing a forum for constructive feedback. Since I have no friends who can play poker at my (admittedly limited) level, I depend on you guys a lot.
Sometimes I wonder if this gives everyone the impression I am a total incompetent, but when I get a set of thought provoking responses like the above I feel reassured it's worth the small risk to my rather large ego.
And how cool is it that hdouble commented?
Pretty fucking cool. Now if he'd just start posting...
You broke three absolute rules:
Never slow play in tournaments.
Never bluff a multi-way pot out of position.
Never limp in except during the tiny-blind phases.
The reason you made these mistakes is also drastically flawed. Why would you want to check raise preflop??
Check raising is a weak play. There are only 3 outcomes: limp-in hell, an all-in preflop KK v AQ/QQ race (you do not actively want a 70/30 or 80/20 race for your tournament life unless short stacked), or you take the pot without seeing a flop. Namely wasted opportunity, gambling, or chicken-shit-scared-to-play-a-flop depending on the outcome.
Congrats on your 3rd in the 69! I don't have money on FT yet but hopefully I'll get around to it.
Your really dont want an 80/20 race for your tourney? Really? I do not think it gets much better than that.. if I have KK and AQ calls me then I am happy as hell and if it is QQ I am extatic.. I do not get those examples at all. What I do not want is to put my AK up a pocket pair or even TJ.. I prefer that 70-80% edge.
Don't know what's wrong with the counter but it's stopped at 10. Strange.
Mark, I agree with the rules you stated in principle. This hand is a good example of just why we have those rules! But the latter half of your comment is open to debate. The blinds were high enough that I should've just been satisfied to pick them up - that's true. But a check-raise isn't a terrible play here. I actually don't mind 70/30 preflop if the upside is ending up near the chiplead heading into the endgame. A hell of a lot of damage can be done from that vantage and it's certainly worth biting a bullet for. It's cash game players who may prefer to see a flop and drive the odds higher for KK, but I honestly am willing to go broke with them preflop counting on the fact that AA is unlikely in the extreme and I look great against everything else. That was the plan, limp, check-raise, get one pusher and run&gun. It is interesting to get another perspective on it though.
i don't know mark, but fuck your rules, you have to mix it up once and a while, so it is hard to critize a well timed curve ball. Your implying iak did 4 things wrong, when in reality he took a calculated risk that hit a shitty flop. Iak can be critized for not letting them go, but I doubt most people can.
I like the mix up here, especially from ep, i have to admit, on line, I can't let this hand go either, enternal hope in poker is like beer muscles.
No offense mark, well maybe a little, but there is not one way to play this game.
Iak, great hand and post, someone that scores as much as guy lefleur did shouldn't be concerned with your gameplay, we all know you got game.
i don't mind the limp with your monster move but, without a raise preflop you're gonna have a tuf time getting opponents to believe you've got a strong Ace.
check the flop and bet half the pot on the turn if everyone checked the flop. if you get called there, pray a J or K hits the river. obv fold if you get raised on the turn. check/fold to a river bet if you don't strike lightning
cashmere pj's huh. ghey
yea its already been said but u can't bluff 4 people out of hand with KK in that situation its just not possible, secondly with only 3k left u have to call and hope for a miracle....good run though and good post as usual
Who in the world would not like to see an opponent call quite late in a tourney an all-in preflop holding KK vs either AQ or especially QQ?!?!
You can't get your money in much better than 80-20...and I will always "gamble" in that situation!
As for your play, everything has already been said. If you make a play, you have to be willing to accept that it can go wrong and be ready to fold your preflop monster...there's always another chance down the road to double up
Of course nothing is set in stone, but have any of you done the math on a 70/30? Force a heads up all in preflop during a tournament and you are gambling. That's your whole bankroll remember! To everyone creaming themselves with KK vs A2 preflop in late-stage tournaments when they're comfortably chipped, you can keep your cheap thrills. I fking hate it. I (probably) won't fold but I damn well don't relish the call if it can cripple me. I would much rather steal 3 medium pots post-flop than take one 70/30 or 80/20 thank you very much.
Iak. Cash game players don't slow play KK because they are hoping to see a cheap safe flop. No cheap flop is safe. Cash game players slow play KK because the idiot on their left is telegraphing his raise. If you think improved position after doubling up outweigh the evident risks, then you haven't made any mistakes - just encountered one of the risks. Note limping begets limping, this hand would have been raised if you'd folded. I don't look to double in tournaments, I just want to win without showdown. So I guess my perspective is different, but as you say just my opinion.
Eric. It is never correct to open limp in the late stages of a tournament. Unless the BB has posted all in and you're encouraging a multi-way checkdown. Or the BB has 2x BB and you assume he's gonna raise so you can reraise isolate him. And probably other funky exceptions but never in a normal hand.
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