I turn out to be a die on my feet kind of guy...aka FT 20k final table (almost)...aka You Decide (Jordan don't sue me!)
Openly stated goals for the evening of poker that was last night.
I failed in both attempts, but it’s up to you to decide which was a more spectacular failure.
Let me begin by saying I am back in the zone. I took Smokkee and Hoy’s recent return to winning ways as a major inspiration. Somehow I felt I was due for my next final table run very soon, given that chronologically I got hot the first time right after Hoy and Smokkee started demolishing every MTT that got in their way. Superstitious nonsense perhaps, but this week I feel fucking lucky: dialed in and dangerous.
Sadly, The Mookie didn't give a shit about any of my Daily Affirmation mumbo jumbo.
Jacks hurt me last night. Nah - that’s too blame-avoiding. I fucked myself up pretty bad playing Jacks last night. That’s closer to the bone and to the truth. Because JJ is one of mah boyz, I will refrain from using my (considerable? awe-inspiring?) intellect to come up with a devasting new way to disparage his signature hand.
The Mookie: Why is it I think I should have won this tournament by now? It certainly isn’t that I think I am a better MTT player than the brethren (or sistren – Joanne, Jules and Maudie routinely pick my bones clean. Kitty has bounced me a lot too!). Is it because I consider Mookie a friend? If anyone hangs with Mookie and doesn’t consider him a friend, they pretty much qualify for sociopathy. The dude is likable, whadya want? So it can’t simply be that. Plus I like Hoy a lot too (in a secure, comfortable with my masculinity kind of way), but have never considered myself entitled to a MATH award. I just kind of think/believe the Mookie’s the blogger tournament I am gonna win one of these days. Technically I won The (K)Not once long ago, but it was a low turnout day, with most of the heavy hitters absent, so I don’t really count it.
Yesterday was not the day. WillWonka, a man whose kings I mercilessly deposed last time out, got his pound of flesh from me, heedless of the fact he was illegally taking my blood, connective tissue, and a couple of vital organs. As I mentioned last post, it would behoove some of you to revisit The Bard for edumacation on just such niceties. Anyway, I raised my Jacks into his kings preflop and when he pushed at me post flop, cleverly joking I better not kill his kings this game, I decided to see what kings look like when the computer turns them over.
Same as always it turns out.
Yes, kids, I call and I am second out of the Mookie. How the fuck someone beat me out of the tourney is a genuine mystery considering this was hand number 3! Patience, people. Patience.
So one down, one to go, but that good vibe is going strong. And the 20k begins to feel very familiar. I make small moves here and there, play very tight early on and chip up steadily, without actually busting anyone. Until none other than the HammerPlayer himself shows up in my big blind.
The following opinion may be completely false, but I have played a lot of hands with Hoy, and certainly watched him for a long time. I have read his blog daily for months now. If there is one blogger I think I have some intuitive sense of, it would be Hoy. Thus, when I 3x’d him with AJo and he pushed at me, I asked myself – Which of the two things that Hoy is capable of doing is this? Is it a resteal, with him giving me credit for a +/- hand but one I will fold to pressure? Or is it the overbet for value, being made specifically to me, with him knowing I will interpret it as a resteal?
I did not instacall. I mulled. But there was not much in the way of information outside this. I had two high cards. I could afford either move – the call would leave me with 3k (I think), and it was early enough I could rebound. If I won, I would be at 8k and able to try playing some real poker. So I did a gutcheck, and put my boy on a resteal with one of those ineffable certainties you can't adequately explain, and I called his push.
His Q8d found an 8 on the flop, but I got all Greenstein on him and hit an A on the river. The money went in preflop, and I was okay with losing given that my read was dead on. That I won was helpful, although I shit you not - I took no pleasure in bouncing a guy I consider a friend and a teacher. All I can say is that I show my respect for my friends by playing as hard as I possibly can against them. On the bright side, he needed his sleep, given his late night win the other day. For those of you who would point to Hoy’s mantra – which I generally live by too – about calling all-ins with AJ and AT, I would just say that this particular call was contextual and I believe correct, but not because I won the hand. Your thoughts are always appreciated, so feel free, but spare some energy for the big question of the day, which follows.
After this, the 20k went great. I made a sneaky check-call to successfully induce an all-in when I flopped two pair - only to have him runner-runner a Q and an A for a better two pair. “Slow-playing Moron” I guess would be a fair criticism, but I did get all the money in WAY ahead, and that is all I really care about in these things. Because I had been up to my usual blinds pilfering ways, I survived that botched slickness and continued up the ladder. Along the way Don, Kitty, slb and JJ stopped by to rail me via IM. Can’t say it enough, I appreciate it. Makes it more fun without doubt. Smokkee also stuck around long enough to see that Ya Can’t Always Get What Ya Want is about as true an observation as any. In addition to going deep in the 20k, the dude comes in second in the Mookie. I truly chuckle when people minimize the skill involved in MTTs.
But now to my moment of truth, and an honest question. Many of you who stop by here are very accomplished players. So here is someone at the beginning of the game with limited final table experience (four non-blogger deep field MTTs and about as many at blogger tourneys) asking for your opinion. Smokkee, Hoy, Fuel, Ryan and Wes in particular I’d appreciate your thoughts, but in general I’m putting this scenario out there because I am ambivalent about both the decision and the result. Edit: I hope it's abundantly clear these are not the only people whose game I have a deep respect for. It was early morning, these are the names that came to mind - so take no offense, ye unwashed but highly lethal masses.
There are 11 players left. Fucking cool, no? I agree – I tied my previous FT 20k best finish. the final table is in sight. Blinds are 4000/8000 + 500 I believe. I have roughly 65k and am UTG+1 when dealt JJ. There are 6 players at my table. I truly believe I have a tight image. My raises have generally been respected, and I have shown enough hands when raising with the goods that I’ve been able to steal blinds even short stacked. My VP$IP at this late stage is still 22/14. UTG limps for 8k. I bet 32000 aka half my stack. It folds around to UTG who mulls and then calls me. Flop is K6T rainbow. He thinks about it again and then puts me all-in. I am down to 32k, but the kicker is that someone else just busted on the other table and now we are one bustout from the final table, with a micro stack of 14k on the other table. If I lay it down, I have a decent shot of making the final table as another microshorty with an M=2ish. The other piece of information relates to the player in question. He had a stack of 120,000+ when he called me. His bet of 32k still leaves him 60k+ behind. And he bullied me off a pot two orbits ago with a similar move. What range do I put him on? It’s possible he has a king. He’s been aggressive preflop mostly, so if he had QQ through AA he would have put me allin preflop. AK, KQ, KJ, KT – all possible. Pocket pair? Possible. Any mid powered A is also possible as are mid-pairs which I have seen him limp. He’s looser than I, with a VP$IP around 35/20.
So those were my considerations and the factors I tried to weigh. What would you do? Do you call with Jacks facing an overcard? Do you laydown and try to make the Final Table, which I said was stated goal tonight. Openly stated – ask slb or Don. I called this as my goal before I stepped up to bat tonight. Do I risk it so close to the end?
Well, obviously I did. He had pocket sixes and flopped a set which he then bet at me. He could afford the preflop raise easily and looked at the implied odds if he hit I guess, although I'm not sure calling off 25% of your stack there to the tightest guy at the table was advisable. [Edit: got to add this for clarity's sake since two guys I respect alluded to it. I was entirely kidding about villain having implied odds to call here; unless he thinks I am bluffing or playing 22-55 this call with 66 is dumb. In the context of my likely range, this move deserved to get torched.] I don’t improve and I am out in 10th. Out of 1054.
I guess deep down, I didn’t want to pussy my way into the Final Table. At the end, I badly (perhaps too badly) wanted to win and for 30k I had the chance to win 120k and be a final table factor. I checked my read and thought I was ahead (deluded myself so?) and that he was bullying me with a midpair. [I was close!] So on the whole, I like (or at least can live with) this call, but am very curious to know what you guys think.
At this point I will go out on a limb and say I believe I am becoming a pretty good MTT player. Yay Me. That said, the caveat is I also had a huge suckout in the midgame to keep me alive. It was balanced by the runnah-runnah I mentioned earlier, and although the money went in late, JJ v 66 has got to clear my karmic slate too I think.
Lastly, congrats to Lifesagrind who made the final table and was looking excellent when I left. Hope you took it down brotha. Would’ve been cool to have two bloggers final table this baby together. Next time.
Laytah.
- Win The Mookie.
- Final Table the Full Tilt 20k
I failed in both attempts, but it’s up to you to decide which was a more spectacular failure.
Let me begin by saying I am back in the zone. I took Smokkee and Hoy’s recent return to winning ways as a major inspiration. Somehow I felt I was due for my next final table run very soon, given that chronologically I got hot the first time right after Hoy and Smokkee started demolishing every MTT that got in their way. Superstitious nonsense perhaps, but this week I feel fucking lucky: dialed in and dangerous.
Sadly, The Mookie didn't give a shit about any of my Daily Affirmation mumbo jumbo.
Jacks hurt me last night. Nah - that’s too blame-avoiding. I fucked myself up pretty bad playing Jacks last night. That’s closer to the bone and to the truth. Because JJ is one of mah boyz, I will refrain from using my (considerable? awe-inspiring?) intellect to come up with a devasting new way to disparage his signature hand.
The Mookie: Why is it I think I should have won this tournament by now? It certainly isn’t that I think I am a better MTT player than the brethren (or sistren – Joanne, Jules and Maudie routinely pick my bones clean. Kitty has bounced me a lot too!). Is it because I consider Mookie a friend? If anyone hangs with Mookie and doesn’t consider him a friend, they pretty much qualify for sociopathy. The dude is likable, whadya want? So it can’t simply be that. Plus I like Hoy a lot too (in a secure, comfortable with my masculinity kind of way), but have never considered myself entitled to a MATH award. I just kind of think/believe the Mookie’s the blogger tournament I am gonna win one of these days. Technically I won The (K)Not once long ago, but it was a low turnout day, with most of the heavy hitters absent, so I don’t really count it.
Yesterday was not the day. WillWonka, a man whose kings I mercilessly deposed last time out, got his pound of flesh from me, heedless of the fact he was illegally taking my blood, connective tissue, and a couple of vital organs. As I mentioned last post, it would behoove some of you to revisit The Bard for edumacation on just such niceties. Anyway, I raised my Jacks into his kings preflop and when he pushed at me post flop, cleverly joking I better not kill his kings this game, I decided to see what kings look like when the computer turns them over.
Same as always it turns out.
Yes, kids, I call and I am second out of the Mookie. How the fuck someone beat me out of the tourney is a genuine mystery considering this was hand number 3! Patience, people. Patience.
So one down, one to go, but that good vibe is going strong. And the 20k begins to feel very familiar. I make small moves here and there, play very tight early on and chip up steadily, without actually busting anyone. Until none other than the HammerPlayer himself shows up in my big blind.
The following opinion may be completely false, but I have played a lot of hands with Hoy, and certainly watched him for a long time. I have read his blog daily for months now. If there is one blogger I think I have some intuitive sense of, it would be Hoy. Thus, when I 3x’d him with AJo and he pushed at me, I asked myself – Which of the two things that Hoy is capable of doing is this? Is it a resteal, with him giving me credit for a +/- hand but one I will fold to pressure? Or is it the overbet for value, being made specifically to me, with him knowing I will interpret it as a resteal?
I did not instacall. I mulled. But there was not much in the way of information outside this. I had two high cards. I could afford either move – the call would leave me with 3k (I think), and it was early enough I could rebound. If I won, I would be at 8k and able to try playing some real poker. So I did a gutcheck, and put my boy on a resteal with one of those ineffable certainties you can't adequately explain, and I called his push.
His Q8d found an 8 on the flop, but I got all Greenstein on him and hit an A on the river. The money went in preflop, and I was okay with losing given that my read was dead on. That I won was helpful, although I shit you not - I took no pleasure in bouncing a guy I consider a friend and a teacher. All I can say is that I show my respect for my friends by playing as hard as I possibly can against them. On the bright side, he needed his sleep, given his late night win the other day. For those of you who would point to Hoy’s mantra – which I generally live by too – about calling all-ins with AJ and AT, I would just say that this particular call was contextual and I believe correct, but not because I won the hand. Your thoughts are always appreciated, so feel free, but spare some energy for the big question of the day, which follows.
After this, the 20k went great. I made a sneaky check-call to successfully induce an all-in when I flopped two pair - only to have him runner-runner a Q and an A for a better two pair. “Slow-playing Moron” I guess would be a fair criticism, but I did get all the money in WAY ahead, and that is all I really care about in these things. Because I had been up to my usual blinds pilfering ways, I survived that botched slickness and continued up the ladder. Along the way Don, Kitty, slb and JJ stopped by to rail me via IM. Can’t say it enough, I appreciate it. Makes it more fun without doubt. Smokkee also stuck around long enough to see that Ya Can’t Always Get What Ya Want is about as true an observation as any. In addition to going deep in the 20k, the dude comes in second in the Mookie. I truly chuckle when people minimize the skill involved in MTTs.
But now to my moment of truth, and an honest question. Many of you who stop by here are very accomplished players. So here is someone at the beginning of the game with limited final table experience (four non-blogger deep field MTTs and about as many at blogger tourneys) asking for your opinion. Smokkee, Hoy, Fuel, Ryan and Wes in particular I’d appreciate your thoughts, but in general I’m putting this scenario out there because I am ambivalent about both the decision and the result. Edit: I hope it's abundantly clear these are not the only people whose game I have a deep respect for. It was early morning, these are the names that came to mind - so take no offense, ye unwashed but highly lethal masses.
There are 11 players left. Fucking cool, no? I agree – I tied my previous FT 20k best finish. the final table is in sight. Blinds are 4000/8000 + 500 I believe. I have roughly 65k and am UTG+1 when dealt JJ. There are 6 players at my table. I truly believe I have a tight image. My raises have generally been respected, and I have shown enough hands when raising with the goods that I’ve been able to steal blinds even short stacked. My VP$IP at this late stage is still 22/14. UTG limps for 8k. I bet 32000 aka half my stack. It folds around to UTG who mulls and then calls me. Flop is K6T rainbow. He thinks about it again and then puts me all-in. I am down to 32k, but the kicker is that someone else just busted on the other table and now we are one bustout from the final table, with a micro stack of 14k on the other table. If I lay it down, I have a decent shot of making the final table as another microshorty with an M=2ish. The other piece of information relates to the player in question. He had a stack of 120,000+ when he called me. His bet of 32k still leaves him 60k+ behind. And he bullied me off a pot two orbits ago with a similar move. What range do I put him on? It’s possible he has a king. He’s been aggressive preflop mostly, so if he had QQ through AA he would have put me allin preflop. AK, KQ, KJ, KT – all possible. Pocket pair? Possible. Any mid powered A is also possible as are mid-pairs which I have seen him limp. He’s looser than I, with a VP$IP around 35/20.
So those were my considerations and the factors I tried to weigh. What would you do? Do you call with Jacks facing an overcard? Do you laydown and try to make the Final Table, which I said was stated goal tonight. Openly stated – ask slb or Don. I called this as my goal before I stepped up to bat tonight. Do I risk it so close to the end?
Well, obviously I did. He had pocket sixes and flopped a set which he then bet at me. He could afford the preflop raise easily and looked at the implied odds if he hit I guess, although I'm not sure calling off 25% of your stack there to the tightest guy at the table was advisable. [Edit: got to add this for clarity's sake since two guys I respect alluded to it. I was entirely kidding about villain having implied odds to call here; unless he thinks I am bluffing or playing 22-55 this call with 66 is dumb. In the context of my likely range, this move deserved to get torched.] I don’t improve and I am out in 10th. Out of 1054.
I guess deep down, I didn’t want to pussy my way into the Final Table. At the end, I badly (perhaps too badly) wanted to win and for 30k I had the chance to win 120k and be a final table factor. I checked my read and thought I was ahead (deluded myself so?) and that he was bullying me with a midpair. [I was close!] So on the whole, I like (or at least can live with) this call, but am very curious to know what you guys think.
At this point I will go out on a limb and say I believe I am becoming a pretty good MTT player. Yay Me. That said, the caveat is I also had a huge suckout in the midgame to keep me alive. It was balanced by the runnah-runnah I mentioned earlier, and although the money went in late, JJ v 66 has got to clear my karmic slate too I think.
Lastly, congrats to Lifesagrind who made the final table and was looking excellent when I left. Hope you took it down brotha. Would’ve been cool to have two bloggers final table this baby together. Next time.
Laytah.
29 Comments:
Yay you!
I think you have to lay down the jacks. It isn't about wussing your way to the final table, it is just what did he call with and what is he moving in with? So many things have you beat and what doesn't have you beat. AQ? AJ? QJ? 9's? One man's opinion, but there you go. Congrats, though; very well done.
Gotta agree with CC. Lay 'em down. Odds are too good you're beat. Then again, I hate freakin' jacks. Re: Hand vs. Hoy. Now you know what it's like to be on the other end of the equation.
Having napped, I am left wondering if the better play preflop would have been a push, given my M.
cc and Hacker - believe me I hear ya, I guess it boiled down my read telling me that flop bet was FOS. instead IGH. Acronyms are cruel.
It is a hard laydown man. Especially with alot of bluffing going on.. I would not fault you for going either way. What I do disagree about is calling off 32K of a 100K+ stack with 66 against a tight player. WAYYYY too much to call off IMHO but I tend to play conservatively.
I would have pushed with J's at that point in time...just my take...picked up a few blinds for the final table. But I would have played them the same way probably, but the K would have caused the sirens to be calling, but then again, what do I know.
jacks only hold up against you.
You're in EP, shit or get off the pot, push all in or limp and toss after a king or ace shows on the flop.
As Harrington says, first vigosh, osh ghosh bigosh, or what ever he said about being first to act. You were not first, your still in EP, with a four or 5 still to act. So if winning is the goal, make that 60k hurt someone stack if they call, I have learned, never let them see the flop late in a tourney where they can make a hand, your pot committed, betting the rest of your stack gives them the odds to call, its a lose lose scenerio.
Just my 2 cents.
When you put half your stack in preflop, and saw the pot over 100K, I would say that it is the right time to push them in, even with the K showing.
I agree with you, getting to the final table would be huge.....however, getting there with an M of less than 2 wouldn't be ideal.....plus, I believe you were about to get hit with the blinds, giving you no guarantees even with the shorty at the other table.
I only wish your meh hand would have held up like they did for Hoy......
Regardless, a fantastic run and very enjoyable to watch. Well played, well done......
oh, and with the open limper, I probably woulda pushed my stack in at that point since half your stack is gone anyway.......
regardless, a pretty lame call by your opponent in that situation......
Again, congrats on a fabulous showing.......next time it's the ft with all the bright lights.
Great run in the 20 last night. I think I woulda pushed the Jacks preflop after the early limper. Any time I bet half my stack preflop 99% of the time the other half is going in on the flop. But then again I'm no Hoy, smokkee, etc.
Was good to see you at my starting table last night in The Mookie. Sadly I didn't last much longer than you. And yes one day, hopefully soon, you will win one of these things. It's your destiny...your birthright....sorry still a little sleepy from the marathon finish of last night's tourney.
P.S. Thanks for the kind words, but I thought we agreed when I paid you the $20, that you would use those cool big words that I always have to look up when you were talking about me...what gives ??? I think I'm gonna need that $20 back.
You and I both know that JJ is a rag, but it is NOT correct to fold here. If you fold you'd have 4BB left. It is just unlucky, but when you open raise for 1/2 your stack you are pot committed regardless of the flop. Sidenote: Betting his set at you was brilliant play on behalf of your opponent. ALWAYS bet out sets in these situations - you are more likely to be paid than not.
Regardless of the tough decision (of which I'll refrain from giving my opinion as I suck right now), I say nice job sir.
Keep at it and you will win that mofo.
Iak,
i wuz very impressed with your play late in the 20k. you've come a long way sir.
this is my take on the last hand. if you're willing to commit half your stack preflop, you may as well push. he may have still called and won anyway.
if you bet 3x (24k) preflop, and he puts you all in on the flop, you can still get away from it with 40k. you're considered a shortie but, no one wants to dubble up a shorty. so, you pick the standard preflop shorty all in hands, push and hopefully get away with a couple of steals to get a reasonable stack going into the final table (if your lucky).
i'm not saying the call was bad either. you got yourself committed and had to call his flop raise. you just got unlucky.
i know your pain. i've missed many final tables finishing in the 10-15 place range. it's a frustrating place to be.
be proud of your finish in the 20k, very impressive. keep at it, your big tourney score is close.
Personally, I would have just pushed all-in preflop. I don't like to put in a raise of 1/2 my stack just because it'll put my in an uncomfortable spot when the flop comes unfavorably to me. Plus, if retard is going to call with 66 with no implied odds preflop then shove when he hits hit hand, he's undoubtedly dumb enough to convince himself that you have overcards if you push preflop.
As played, I would have called on the flop since it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to push with a good hand since he should be trying to pick off a continuation bet, but this guy is obviously just a moron.
Sorry we didn't get to take down the one-two spots.
Me as one of course :)
Everyone has answered your question already but just to throw it out there, I would have pushed preflop.
Get'em next time!
Me, I would have folded them and waited for KKs.. ;-)
BTW, we're all square.. good luck next time.
A nap and a fun day with the kids has really solidified that next time there I push preflop. I appreciate everyone's input, and if anyone else wants to add their two cents, I am listening and appreciative.
I am torn about my impression of my opponent. How the fuck does he call that raise knowing I am pot committed and the tightest guy at a 6 handed table, raising from EP. My stack was going in on that flop and so whether he bet or checked I would have pushed. That being the case, I should have used it as leverage preflop. Lesson learned. Likely another 4 weeks before I get a chance to try it again, but fortunately I have about that much time left on break.
He was getting almost exacatly 2 to 1 there to call leaving himself about 70k if the flop was ugly. Not the kind of play I would make, but not unreasonable. Hey, I should do some work, this is like my 50th blogger comment today. Plus, I need to take a leak, where is a garbage can when you need one.
Iak, for what it's worth, I would have played the JJ hand more or less exactly the same as you. I think one of the problems with blogs as a medium for this kind of after-the-fact discussion is that people usually know how the thing turned out once you're asking them for comments (in this case, that you lost to a flopped set), and therefore their comments tend to impute the knowledge of what happened next into their opinions, even if it's done subconsciously. I think you did what you had to do in this hand, and there is just a huge difference between someone saying they would lay this down, and actually doing the laying it down if it happened to them, live and in the flesh.
I almost think that the preflop push looks more desperate with a shortish stack, and therefore is easier for an opponent to call, than the standard 4x raise. I would have probably made it 15k or 16k to go with the Jacks, just like you did, because that's what you're always doing with your big hands. So I like that move.
Now, when he calls that preflop bet, and then puts you allin on a flop with a King and two rags, I simply cannot relate to anyone who says they would lay it down. Knowing how it happened, you lay it down, sure. But being where you were at in the tournament, it's not so much that you were already pot committed with half your stack in the pot, so much as it is that it seems highly likely to me that you are ahead here. I'm reading CC's comment above how he says there are so many things that can beat you. Like what? This guy would have to have a King in his hand, or an impossible-to-read-him-for low set or crazy two pairs that he can't call with preflop. With your Jacks, I assume you are almost certainly ahead here, and I would readily call off the rest of my chips given the texture of the flop that came out. How anyone can put a big stack preflop-raise-caller on one of the one or two likely hands that beats you is beyond me. Iak, I guarantee you that if this hand happened to most of us live, or better yet, if you posted it here without giving any impression whether you had won or lost, then you wouldn't be getting so many comments saying you should lay down the hand on the flop. I say you're a pussass if you lay that down, with just the one non-Ace overcard on the flop, against an aggressive guy with a big stack who likes to c-bet and push people off of hands on the flop. You should have been happy he put you allin, and happy to call, in my view. In the end you lost, and that part sucks, but I don't see how you could possibly lay that down other than just wanting to back your way into the final table.
Not to sound like every poker book I've ever read, but some of the earlier commenters here got it just right -- what really is the use of backing your way into the final table with an M of 2? Yes you could win if you go on a huge, improbable run. Yes you might just be able to sneak up an extra spot in the payouts and make some extra beans. But in general, at least with me, I know I am playing these tournaments not to final table them, not to make at least a grand, but to win the whole thing. Every time. If you're playing to win the tournament, then I say you need to call the allin bet on the flop with those Jacks.
Btw I blogged today about the hand you busted me out of the 20k on, and it's funny how my take on it was exactly like yours. I think you made a great play, and I was just proud to be a part of a hand where you would go so against conventional wisdom and call my allin reraise preflop with an AJo, because you know my game, you had a read, and you went with it. That, my friend, was kickass poker right there, and I was proud to be a part of it, and to contribute to the stack that eventually made it all the way to 10th place in this thing. Truly a great performance man, keep up the awesome work.
I would have pushed. JJ is a very tough hand to play post flop, and with the final table so close, the short stacks so short, and the blinds so very, very nice, a win there is nice. Especially in EP.
I would have folded the JJ, but sometimes I play poker like a 5-year-old who has just seen a monster in his closet. However, your read was justifiable, and if anyone really puts anyone else on a set, I'd like to meet that guy and then steal is brain, or at least the poker portion of it. Or say bullshit to them cause no one can really do that.
Hell, you probably got a nice score outta that. Focus on the positive.
wow, actualy poker content....did I write this?
Eric:
A) Yeah, I guess I do get the call, but don't love it. If he was putting me on any kind of range, the best he could hope for was a race - as likely he was dominated to two outs. Saying that, I want 66 to call my Jacks everyday of the week.
B) No, you didn't write this. I am going to have to put some poker content every once in a while from now on to better disguise your posts.
However, since you guessed incorrectly - you owe me a dollar according to the contract laid out in the last post. Full Tilt transfer will do nicely, thank you.
Hoy - I appreciate the analysis. It is human nature to second guess yourself, especially after the fact, and your comment helped put me back into my mindset last night. Actually, you hit the nail on the head as to why I didn't push preflop, a reason I had forgotten in my fatigue last night when I wrote this post and up until I read your comment.
I seriously mulled over a push and chose NOT to, because I thought it may look like a desperation push and might bring one of the two bigger stacks yet to act into the hand, looking to pick me off (one guy had well over 200k, another had 180k+). I can't believe I forgot I went down that line of reasoning! I felt my 4x there stated in no uncertain terms that I liked this hand, and if you wanted to call it, the other half was going in next. The goal was to get them all to fold, but leave me a hatch to bail if I got put all in by UTG if limped a monster. When he just called, that flop pretty much guaranteed I was all-in.
Also like you, I am 100% from the "I am there to win" camp. I might have forgotten that for a bit when I posted. I am challenged by the game and want to be the best decision maker I can be. From that, the dollars should follow. Frankly I would have felt like a scam, just limping into the FT for the screenshot and going out on the next hand. When I make that final table, I hope it's with a stack that can do the damage. Thanks for the refresher and reassurance.
Peak - All that said, I can understand the other side of this. I play a game that I in no small part owe to Hoy & Smokkee, so it should surprise no one we are of like minds in these situations. When I took a downspin these last few weeks, it was not because I loosened up and started playing like a maniac. Felicia got it exactly right - I had tightened up too much and lost my sense of adventure. My (limited) successes in MTTs come from forcing myself to fit the guy to a range of hands, then trusting and acting on that read. It hurts to go out like this, but the only thing I MIGHT do different next time is push for pressure, hoping it looked real and not "strong is weak".
Eric: you owe me a dollar.
Wow. I feel like a comment donk after Hoy's chastening. (He's right, of course.) All sorts of mediums to learn about this game. What I did fail to say was: good job, dude. Perhaps your scores come in bunches.
I go broke with my jacks there because of the size of the pot; I don't love the king but I make the call because you're good a surprising amount of time there against a big stack. Though I am also pushing them preflop because they're so vulnerable, I want a call from all the lower pocket pairs, and though I am very unlikely to get away from them no matter what comes I'd rather not give myself the chance to fold to one overcard.
I don't necessarily agree that leading with a set into that particular flop is genius, but given the size of the pot vs. the size of your stack it's pretty hard to go wrong with it. Leading with the set there is guaranteed to get called by AK and KQ, but the bet actually gives you a chance to get away from a hand like AQ that you might otherwise push with if checked to. (I know I'd push; pot is 2x my stack and I know I have outs = push!)
UTG's call preflop is hysterically bad mathwise if he thinks he's behind, and not great if he thinks it's a coinflip, especially since he's out of position and there won't be that many flops he can stop'n'go. The right time to make the decision for him is preflop, unless he's been given advance notice of set-floppage. But then he might as well push preflop anyway as you're obviously not laying down whatever you have.
Last comment on this, great post, it obviously hit a cord with a lot of folks and proves there is no one correct way to play every hand every time.
1. Lets all agree that jacks suck, not that they are unplayable cards, but they create difficult decisions. I myself, would of been more happy to look down at 3 8 in EP after a limp than than jacks in your position, that late in the tourney.
2. Last note, I don't think the created "Tight image" buys you anything with the morons at these MTTs. Too many avatars are popping in and out of these tables, and too many people just play their cards, regardless of position and unaware of oppositional habits. That is why it is donk on donk violence, and we are always the innocent bystanders that take the stray bullet to the head.
good finish man not going to beat a dead horse with my opinion....ps after im done with school and get a life again you gotta teach me to play tournies....
If you are only going to bet out half your stack preflop you end up giving him about 2.5 to 1 on the call and with him limping UTG your raise doesn't have to mean a PP it could be AK or broadway cards too. I think sometimes we want to get credit for being the tight player at the table but often forget some people are not running pokertracker much less even paying attention to who is playing and how they are playing. I think a jam with about 8BB preflop after that limp isn't a bad idea. With his stack in that spot he was probably going to put you allin on any flop, stop and go style.
Sorry dude, proof positive that I am the yang to your ying; bad karma railbird that I am. I'll stay away from the rail.
OOOO, look at me! I'm Iakaris! I've got 28 comments! Whoopee!
Let's cut the crap:
Mel is mine. Not yours, not Waffles, MINE.
I'm the only one who has had the sense enough to see through this charade of the "J Accident"...
It's a cry for help, and I've answered. AND, she's responded. We're in as much love as two people not meeting each other in person can be.
Leave her alone. Seriously.
If you need any poker advice, Mel and I will be in Guam. Or Cleveland. MAYBE Gary, Indiana, but only if money is tight.
Sincerely,
Bloody P
I'm undergoing some serious comment envy here.
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